Posts about: "NTSB" [Posts: 256 Page: 12 of 13]ΒΆ

Musician
January 26, 2026, 22:01:00 GMT
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Post: 12027674
Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3
According to reporting published today by The Air Current - one of its periodic articles reporting on air safety which are not paywalled - the NTSB will meet on January 27.
The official announcement is at https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...A20260112.aspx . It mentions the meeting is set to start Tuesday, Jan. 27 at 9 a.m. Eastern time, and has a link to their live webcast. In my experience, the meetings are usually also available on Youtube.

The docket at https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNumber=DCA25MA108 is unchanged from the previous hearing, with the exception of some personal items that have been removed.

Last edited by Musician; 27th January 2026 at 16:52 .

Subjects NTSB  NTSB Docket

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WillowRun 6-3
January 27, 2026, 16:55:00 GMT
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Post: 12028094
Strongly concur with DaveR.

There are, in the facts developed by the NTSB investigation, not merely holes in the Alpine-country cheese which "line up." There are instead multiple lines through the cheese. It's more like the cheese has been shot through with a dozen rounds by Dirty Harry.


Subjects NTSB

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Undertow
January 27, 2026, 21:50:00 GMT
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Post: 12028235


@Osinttechnical
Possibly one of the more damning slides in NTSB history found in the Blackhawk-American Airline
s crash investigation.

In 2013, a group of local ATC and helicopter pilots proposed moving flight paths to avoid aircraft-helicopter collisions on landing at DCA. The FAA ignored them.


Subjects ATC  DCA  FAA  NTSB

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DaveReidUK
January 27, 2026, 22:35:00 GMT
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Post: 12028253
Originally Posted by Undertow
The FAA ignored them
Strictly speaking, the FAA as regulator doesn't "ignore" NTSB Safety Recommendations.

It responds to them, with either acceptance or rejection, and in the latter case provides its reasons for doing so. It may also suggest alternative means of compliance with the Board's wishes, and in some cases this leads to quite a bit of to-and-froing between the two organisations until a final position is reached.

The hearing is about to start on the Probable Cause statements, having had a prolonged debate on proposed amendments to several of the Findings (which are now all agreed).

Subjects FAA  Findings  NTSB  Probable Cause  Safety Recommendations

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WillowRun 6-3
January 27, 2026, 22:48:00 GMT
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Post: 12028261
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Strictly speaking, the FAA as regulator doesn't "ignore" NTSB Safety Recommendations.

It responds to them, with either acceptance or rejection, and in the latter case provides its reasons for doing so. It may also suggest alternative means of compliance with the Board's wishes, and in some cases this leads to quite a bit of to-and-froing between the two organisations until a final position is reached.
True with regard to NTSB rec's.

But the discussion was about a working group organized, convened and conducted by people from the FAA DCA staff and other concerned parties. The output of that group is what got "ignored"


Subjects DCA  FAA  NTSB  Safety Recommendations

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nachtmusak
January 27, 2026, 22:50:00 GMT
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Post: 12028262
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Strictly speaking, the FAA as regulator doesn't "ignore" NTSB Safety Recommendations.
The comment in question says the proposal came from a group of pilots and ATC staff though, which I don't imagine was put together by the NTSB.

Subjects ATC  FAA  NTSB  Safety Recommendations

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Ver5pen
January 27, 2026, 23:08:00 GMT
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Post: 12028271
Originally Posted by Musician
I don't see a livestream on youtube, but they have some supporting animations.
The caption/transcript is at https://transcript.verbit.co/?transc...WidthMode=true
The docket has had more than 60 items added. https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNumber=DCA25MA108

Boardmeeting Overview Animation
https://youtu.be/2H_A6mHsHk0

Aircraft Visibility Study
https://youtu.be/LJ10ZOcWuC4

Control Tower Visibility Study
https://youtu.be/IpcPaBbvwnM
that recreation is incredible, kudos to NTSB

I don\x92t know why they chose to create it from the IP\x92s (RHS)\x92s point of view though, the PF was LHS and arguably had a better view of the CRJ the entire time

IP seemed like he had his hands full with the RT (they were blocked a few times) and monitoring the PF\x92s flying (she busted the altitude constraint multiple times)

definitely an absurd environment and accident waiting to happen (plenty of near misses have been reported subsequently in the same airspace). Americans have all the gear and money but somehow their cowboy side comes out all too often and aviation seems to be one of the biggest candidates. They are lucky they didn\x92t have the obnoxious clown JFK Steve screaming in their ears

Subjects Accident Waiting to Happen  CRJ  Close Calls  NTSB  NTSB Docket

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DaveReidUK
January 27, 2026, 23:09:00 GMT
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Post: 12028272
Probable Cause Statement:

The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the FAA's placement of a helicopter route in close proximity to a runway approach path.

Their failure to regularly review and evaluate helicopter routes and available data, and their failure to act on recommendations to mitigate the risk of a mid-air collision near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, as well as the air traffic system's overreliance on visual separation.

In order to promote efficient traffic flow without consideration for the limitations of the see and avoid concept.

Also causal was the lack of effective pilot applied visual separation by the helicopter crew, which resulted in a mid-air collision.

Additional causal factors were were the tower team's loss of situational awareness and degraded performance due to a high workload of the combined helicopter and local control positions, and the absence of a risk assessment process to identify and mitigate real time operational risk factors, which resulted in miss prioritization of duties, inadequate traffic advisory advisories, and the lack of safety alerts to both flight crews.

Also causal was the Army's failure to ensure pilots were aware of the effects of air tolerances on barometric altimeter in their helicopters, which resulted in the crew flying above the maximum published helicopter route altitude.

Contributing factors include the limitations of the traffic awareness and collision alerting systems on both aircraft, which precluded effective alerting of the impending collision to the flight crew's.

An unsustainable airport arrival rate, increasing traffic volume with a changing fleet mix and airline scheduling practices at DCA, which regularly strain the DCA Atct workforce and degraded safety over time.

The Army's lack of a fully implemented safety management system, which should have identified and addressed hazards associated with altitude exceedances on the Washington, D.C. Helicopter routes.

The FAA's failure across multiple organizations to implement previous NTSB recommendations, including Ads-b in and to follow and fully integrate its established safety management system, which should have led to several organizational and operational changes based on previously identified risk that were known to management and the absence of effective data sharing and analysis among the FAA aircraft operators and other relevant organizations.

Subjects Altimeter (All)  Barometric Altimeter  DCA  FAA  NTSB  Probable Cause  Route Altitude  See and Avoid  Separation (ALL)  Situational Awareness  Visual Separation

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Equivocal
January 27, 2026, 23:50:00 GMT
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Post: 12028296
Originally Posted by NTSB
The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the FAA's placement of a helicopter route in close proximity to a runway approach path.
I haven't read the report yet but if this is what it concludes, it looks like it's going to be a disappointing read. Aircraft move around and it's not possible to design routes that never intersect....in an environment such as the one in question, ATC should be authorising the aircraft to follow specific routes only when the requisite separation will exist. As I mentioned much earlier in the thread, t he procedures that were applied by ATC immediately before the accident are ‘standard’ and used the world over. None are intrinsically unsafe but their application (as with all the other rules that need to be followed) needs to be appropriate. Visual separation at night is likely to be fine on a clear night with just two or three aircraft in the sky but it’s unlikely to be in any way appropriate in high traffic density environments. Just because there’s a rule that says you can do something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good idea. You can have a helicopter route as close to an approach path (or any other route) just as long as you don't allow a helicopter and another aircraft to be in the same place at the same time. Whilst the other mentioned causal and contributory factors are all going to be valid up to a point, fundamentally, the FAA permitted inappropriate application of completely suitable procedures. How and why this situation was allowed to prevail is, I hope, discussed in detail in the report even if it didn't make it into the Probable Cause statement.

Subjects ATC  FAA  NTSB  Probable Cause  Separation (ALL)  Visual Separation

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WillowRun 6-3
January 28, 2026, 03:09:00 GMT
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Post: 12028338
"The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the FAA's placement of a helicopter route in close proximity to a runway approach path."

The PC statement should be read in its entirety, and at the conscious risk of ripe cliche, context matters. The Board did not assign the probable cause to the intersecting flight routes as such. For one thing, Chair Homendy repeatedly since the early days of the Board investigation has hammered upon the fact that the vertical separation was as little as 75 feet without any procedural separation (such as the helos holding at Haines Point). And also since the start of the investigation, time and again the complexity of the DCA airspace, and the (in my strident opinion) very messed up operation of DCA with regard to - as ATC staff testified - just "making it work", have been emphasized. Plus the refusal of FAA ATO to act upon the input from the helicopter working group several years ago, plus FAA's declining to note "hot spots" on charts. And the staffing issues, and lack of fidelity to SMS on the part of FAA and to some extent the Army as well. And there were, quite obviously, many findings of fact which are necessarily part of the context for reading . . . and understanding, the PC determination.

A person need not be an aeronautical engineer, airspace architect, or civilian or military aviator to understand from the get-go that intersecting flight paths might be found across the NAS. I'll stand to be corrected but I do not think - having watched the entirety of the hearing today - that the criticism of the Probable Cause finding is a valid, fair or accurate assessment of the Board's work in this investigation.
WillowRun 6-3

Subjects ATC  DCA  FAA  Findings  Helicopter Working Group  Hot Spots  NTSB  NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy  Probable Cause  Separation (ALL)  Vertical Separation

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artee
January 28, 2026, 03:16:00 GMT
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Post: 12028339
Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3
"The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the FAA's placement of a helicopter route in close proximity to a runway approach path."

The PC statement should be read in its entirety, and at the conscious risk of ripe cliche, context matters. The Board did not assign the probable cause to the intersecting flight routes as such. For one thing, Chair Homendy repeatedly since the early days of the Board investigation has hammered upon the fact that the vertical separation was as little as 75 feet without any procedural separation (such as the helos holding at Haines Point). And also since the start of the investigation, time and again the complexity of the DCA airspace, and the (in my strident opinion) very messed up operation of DCA with regard to - as ATC staff testified - just "making it work", have been emphasized. Plus the refusal of FAA ATO to act upon the input from the helicopter working group several years ago, plus FAA's declining to note "hot spots" on charts. And the staffing issues, and lack of fidelity to SMS on the part of FAA and to some extent the Army as well. And there were, quite obviously, many findings of fact which are necessarily part of the context for reading . . . and understanding, the PC determination.

A person need not be an aeronautical engineer, airspace architect, or civilian or military aviator to understand from the get-go that intersecting flight paths might be found across the NAS. I'll stand to be corrected but I do not think - having watched the entirety of the hearing today - that the criticism of the Probable Cause finding is a valid, fair or accurate assessment of the Board's work in this investigation.
WillowRun 6-3
I find it interesting that the actions of the crew of PSA5342 were not included as Probable Cause. How do you think this will affect the lawsuit against them?

Subjects ATC  DCA  FAA  Findings  Helicopter Working Group  Hot Spots  NTSB  NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy  Probable Cause  Separation (ALL)  Vertical Separation

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WillowRun 6-3
January 28, 2026, 03:39:00 GMT
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Post: 12028346
Originally Posted by artee
I find it interesting that the actions of the crew of PSA5342 were not included as Probable Cause. How do you think this will affect the lawsuit against them?
Uh, yes, very conspicuous by its absence.

First, I have taken something posted on this thread some time ago as a deeply important article of faith. It was (I'm not quoting it exactly but from memory) "they owned the airspace of the last several hundred feet of the final approach to 3-3." The effort to paint them as negligent by the (estimable and highly successful) plaintiff lawyers frankly makes me want to puke. And I don't care one iota that some or several of those lawyers own their own aircraft and have pilot licenses. They didn't build hours, did they? And, .... it's one thing to try build a case against the airline company, but something else to assail the deceased pilots.

Relatedly, and second, I tend to think the NTSB sees this in somewhat the same way. But the NTSB really excoriated the FAA, and it richly deserved it too. This was - it cannot be said too often AFAI-am concerned - a systemic failure. So between being revolted by the effort to invade the ownership of those last few hundred feet of airspace or flight path of Bluestreak 5342 on final to 3-3 on the night of 29 January 2025, and gunning for bear in the form of a complacent, ridiculously evasive if not obstructionist if not dishonest FAA, the Board had zero-decimal-zero tolerance or inclination for assigning causal factors to two dead pilots on final to 3-3. And that's EVEN IF the airline company should have done more.

Third, and I don't know if it would be viable, but to the extent that the accountability for this accident lies mostly with FAA, and somewhat with the Army pilots and Army, then aren't the pilots victims too, rather than negilgent party-defendants? Shouldn't their estates have legal representation, as a party-intervenor in the case? That is what I meant earlier, who speaks for them? As we all know, the Board does not find fault. I somewhat think the lawyers seeking their contingency fee will probably, I guess, be talking about "fault." But the Army pilots are a bit different. It is distasteful and unseemly to criticize them, as they were in service, and just as much victims of the systemic failures as Bluestreak 5342's two pilots. And Uncle Sam, why, he's already admitted fault.

Fourth and last, yes, the airline company will get raked over the coals for not having outsmarted the failures of the FAA. Jackpot justice, what a way to improve the architecture and operation of the NAS. (With apologies to a very estimable and deservedly highly well-respected airline industry attorney - a real one - who at a conference in Paris oh, a couple three years or so ago, made the point that plaintiff lawyers should not be the ones setting aviation policy through liability lawsuits.)

What good is a lawyer clodding around a pilot's forum on the internet without a rant now and again, eh?

Subjects Accountability/Liability  FAA  NTSB  Probable Cause

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paulross
January 29, 2026, 12:41:00 GMT
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Post: 12029104
This Thread Re-Mixed

As new information has emerged I have just rebuilt the website that re-organises this long thread by subject.
You can find it here: https://paulross.github.io/pprune-th...DCA/index.html

All 1,829 posts are organised into 68 subjects.

Changes:
  • Added link to NTSB findings, probable cause and final recommendations.
  • Added subjects: 'Accountability/Liability', 'Findings', 'NTSB Docket', 'Barometric Altimeter', 'Route Altitude', 'Hot Spots', 'Final Report', 'Probable Cause', 'Safety Recommendations', 'Helicopter Working Group'.
Around 20% of the posts on the thread are excluded because I can't pick up a subject from that post so please contact me if you feel that you contribution has been excluded.

The project is here: https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads .
Issues can be raised here: https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads/issues or PM me with ideas.

Subjects Altimeter (All)  Barometric Altimeter  Final Report  Findings  Helicopter Working Group  Hot Spots  NTSB  NTSB Docket  Probable Cause  Route Altitude  Safety Recommendations

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Musician
January 29, 2026, 13:55:00 GMT
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Post: 12029155
Originally Posted by Ver5pen
weird that they don’t even mention the Blackhawk PF’s straying from altitude constraints, the IP repeatedly tells her about her deviations multiple times as per the transcript, baro altitude limitations or not they were both aware she wasn’t meeting the limits of the corridor (that the margins are so fine in that airspace is absurd of course)
It's in the findings.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...CA25MA108.aspx
31. Due to additive allowable tolerances of the helicopter’s pitot-static/altimeter system, it is likely that the crew of PAT25 observed a barometric altimeter altitude about 100 ft lower than the helicopter’s true altitude, resulting in the crew erroneously believing that they were under the published maximum altitude for Route 4.
.
Originally Posted by Ver5pen
that recreation is incredible, kudos to NTSB I don’t know why they chose to create it from the IP’s (RHS)’s point of view though, the PF was LHS and arguably had a better view of the CRJ the entire time
I'm guessing because the IP reported the aircraft in sight, the PF didn't.
27. The PAT25 instructor pilot did not positively identify flight 5342 at the time of the initial traffic advisory despite his statement that he had the traffic in sight and his request for visual separation.

Subjects Altimeter (All)  Barometric Altimeter  Blackhawk (H-60)  CRJ  Findings  NTSB  PAT25  Route 4  Separation (ALL)  Traffic in Sight  Visual Separation

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Musician
January 30, 2026, 12:48:00 GMT
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Post: 12029671
Originally Posted by Easy Street
As some won't follow the link and read all of the findings, I think it's only fair to the IP to quote the next finding as well, which speaks to concerns over the inherent (un)safety of visual separation at night in dynamic traffic environments:

28. With several other targets located directly in front of the helicopter represented by points of light with no other features by which to identify aircraft type, and without additional position information from the controller, the instructor pilot likely identified the wrong target.
Yes. That is also apparent from the NTSB visibility study that we've been commenting on in this exchange.
The question was why the NTSB chose the right seat of the helicopter, and that was because the instructor assumed responsibility for the visual separation. There is no cockpit communication about the identification, so the PF wasn't involved in that.

One problem the helicopter had was that the CRJ was flying a turn. Flying straight, you know you're going to collide with something (even if it is just a dot of light) if it doesn't move visually. The CRJ's lights were moving left, so that would've looked like it was safely passing the helicopter by. The crew needed the situational awareness that the CRJ was going to turn towards them as it lined up for runway 33, but they didn't have it. ATC did, but didn't share, for reasons also addressed in the findings.

Subjects ATC  CRJ  Findings  NTSB  Separation (ALL)  Situational Awareness  Visual Separation

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missy
January 31, 2026, 05:11:00 GMT
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Post: 12030060
flyingformoney777 provides a summary of the NTSB Board Meeting.
Runs 25 minutes.

I would argue that both NTSB and Flying for Money used complacency when the term Normalization of deviance,

The process in which deviance from correct or proper behavior or rule becomes culturally normalized.

American sociologist Diane Vaughan defines the process where a clearly unsafe practice becomes considered normal if it does not immediately cause a catastrophe: "a long incubation period [before a final disaster] with early warning signs that were either misinterpreted, ignored or missed completely".
Flying for Money articulates that the cost of admission into the airspace for VFR traffic was pilot initiated visual separation.

I don't understand why the helicopter routes do not have a lateral dimension i.e. track via XXX, remain EAST of a line XXX to XXX. Defined lateral dimensions then allows lateral separation applied to be based on a thinner line, rather than a broad line as per the current charting.


Subjects NTSB  Normalization of Deviance  Separation (ALL)  VFR  Visual Separation

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sunnySA
January 31, 2026, 06:24:00 GMT
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Post: 12030070
Originally Posted by missy
I don't understand why the helicopter routes do not have a lateral dimension i.e. track via XXX, remain EAST of a line XXX to XXX. Defined lateral dimensions then allows lateral separation applied to be based on a thinner line, rather than a broad line as per the current charting.
FWIW, I don't understand why NTSB didn't recommend re-transmit.
Relevant recommendations are
9. Conduct a comprehensive evaluation, in conjunction with local operators, to determine the overall safety benefits and risks to requiring all aircraft to use the same frequency when the helicopter and local positions are combined in the Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport air traffic control tower.
10. Implement anti-blocking technology that will alert controllers and/or flight crews to potentially blocked transmission when simultaneous broadcasting occurs.
From experience, switching aircraft between frequencies will be time consuming, and make the splitting of positions more difficult and make the handover / takeover process much slower and take a longer period of time.

Current Voice Switching Systems allow multiple frequencies and provide re-transmit options, and as such provide instantaneous splitting of frequencies to seperate control positions.

Subjects NTSB  Separation (ALL)

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DaveReidUK
January 31, 2026, 10:06:00 GMT
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Post: 12030113
Originally Posted by missy
flyingformoney777 provides a summary of the NTSB Board Meeting.
Runs 25 minutes.
The Potomac Crash was Bound to Happen by Flying for Money
Having listened to the entire hearing, I'd say this was an excellent summing-up, though the points made about the command gradient in the helicopter and the pilot's history are clearly the author's own comments.

No sign yet of the transcript being added to the public docket, hopefully it will appear in the next few days.

Subjects NTSB  NTSB Docket

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ATC Watcher
January 31, 2026, 11:31:00 GMT
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Post: 12030150
​​QUOTE=sunnySA;12030070]FWIW, I don't understand why NTSB didn't recommend re-transmit.

Current Voice Switching Systems allow multiple frequencies and provide re-transmit options, and as such provide instantaneous splitting of frequencies to separate control positions.

Shows the age of the hardware used in FAA . But using the current method is also a choice ,
The standard way to couple frequencies in ATC is what was avail in DC , you can transmit on both, listen to both simultaneously but not retransmitting on both . potentially reducing eventual blocked transmissions , or at least improves the detection of blocked transmissions .
in ATC , VHF anti blocking systems are being discussed since Tenerife ( 1977) , CONTRAN was the first one , tested but never really implanted , ,later some copies were made , introduced here and there but with a switch to disable, when traffic got too high ,. not sure what the situation is today but I doubt it changed much. ( waiting to be contradicted)
,
In the air , most new 8,33 VHFs have a "dual" function , where you can listen to 2 frequency simultaneously , but when the master is receiving , the slave is blocked out , some have a replay function but useless in flight , especially when flying manual VFR at 200 ft .. I doubt this would have made any difference in this case . Plus it would not solve UHF/VHF ground coupling issue.







Subjects ATC  FAA  NTSB  VFR

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WillowRun 6-3
February 06, 2026, 17:52:00 GMT
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Post: 12033392
Legislation in U.S. House of Reps. pending .....

Waiting to see what becomes of the controversial Section 373 in the recent NDAA.
_________________________
Joint Statement of House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee and House Armed Services Committee Bipartisan Leaders on NTSB\x92s Recommendations to Address DCA Crash
For Immediate Release: February 06, 2026
[Committee contacts omitted]

Washington, DC \x96 The bipartisan leaders of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee and the House Armed Services Committee today issued a joint statement regarding the National Transportation Safety Board\x92s (NTSB) recently approved recommendations to address the January 29, 2025, midair collision at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA).
Joint statement from House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee Chairman Sam Graves (R-MO), House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee Ranking Member Rick Larsen (D-WA), House Armed Services Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R-AL), and House Armed Services Committee Ranking Member Adam Smith (D-WA):

\x93Now that we have received the approved recommendations and probable cause from the NTSB on the tragic DCA midair collision that claimed 67 lives, and with the NTSB\x92s final report expected in a matter of days, we are working on a comprehensive legislative solution to address what we\x92ve learned. It is our firm belief that meaningful improvements to the safety of our airspace require the full and fair consideration of all of the NTSB\x92s recommendations. We are continuing to evaluate the information and analysis gathered and put forward by the NTSB, and we will work together expeditiously on legislation to ensure a crash like this can never happen again.\x94

Subjects DCA  Final Report  NDAA  NTSB  Probable Cause  Section 373 of the FY26 NDAA

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