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Someone Somewhere
July 01, 2025, 13:08:00 GMT permalink Post: 11914265 |
As an electronics and software engineer who has read the AD and related materials on the 248 day bug my understanding is that:
I do agree that the engine driven pumps
should
be able to provide fuel alone, the whole point of these pumps is to keep the plane flying within
some
limitations, high altitude is one of those limitations, I propose that there may be others based on the following:
Cavitating destroys pumps rapidly - someone upthread said replacing the fuel pump immediately is SOP if it has suction fed. Expect end of life in tens of hours rather than tens of thousands. Some aircraft have switched to using jet/venturi pumps powered by returned fuel, like the A220. The electric boost pumps there are mainly for redundancy and are shut down in cruise; only one in each wing tank. Some A320s replace the centre override pumps with venturi transfer pumps. |
adfad
July 01, 2025, 13:36:00 GMT permalink Post: 11914278 |
Thrust is non-linear and complex. Reaction engines (i.e. fans, props) are generally most efficient at minimum power - lowest excess velocity. Turbine engines are generally most efficient at high power. These cancel out somewhere in the middle. With two engines at low power, you also don't have the drag from the dead engine or the drag from the rudder countering yaw.
Cavitating destroys pumps rapidly - someone upthread said replacing the fuel pump immediately is SOP if it has suction fed. Expect end of life in tens of hours rather than tens of thousands. Some aircraft have switched to using jet/venturi pumps powered by returned fuel, like the A220. The electric boost pumps there are mainly for redundancy and are shut down in cruise; only one in each wing tank. Some A320s replace the centre override pumps with venturi transfer pumps. My question is then: what is the minimum loss of thrust in both engines (perhaps more relevantly expressed as a % in fuel flow reduction from expected) that could produce the profile we saw. I appreciate this is a figure with many variables including timing and rate of loss. The reason I think this question is relevant is because we pretty much have 2 prevailing theories at this point:
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artee
July 09, 2025, 07:04:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918167 |
Air India jet's fuel switches in focus, as crash preliminary report nears
From
Reuters
Summary
July 8 (Reuters) - A preliminary report into the deadly crash of an Air India jetliner in June is expected to be released by Friday, three sources with knowledge of the matter said, with one adding the probe had narrowed its focus to the movement of the plane's fuel control switches.
The London-bound Boeing (BA.N) 787 Dreamliner, which started losing height after reaching an altitude of 650 feet, crashed moments after takeoff from Ahmedabad, India, killing 241 of the 242 people on board and the rest on the ground. The investigation into the Air India crash is focusing on the movement of the engine fuel control switches following an analysis of the 787's flight and voice data recorders, along with a simulation by Boeing of the aircraft's final moments, one of the sources said. The investigation has not raised any immediate concerns over mechanical failure, the source said, and there has been no bulletin to airlines recommending changes to 787 operations . Boeing declined to comment. Aviation industry publication the Air Current first reported the focus on the fuel switches that help power the plane's two engines. It was not clear what specific actions involving the fuel switches are being looked at by investigators. Sources told the Air Current that the available information on the black boxes could not rule in or out improper, inadvertent or intentional actions that preceded or followed the apparent loss of thrust before the aircraft crashed. U.S. aviation safety expert John Cox said a pilot would not be able to accidentally move the fuel switches that feed the engines. "You can't bump them and they move," he said. Cox added that if a switch was shut off, the effect would be almost immediate, cutting off engine power. Most air crashes are caused by multiple factors. The investigation is focusing at least partly on engine thrust , Reuters reported last month. While the report from Indian investigators could be made public on Friday, the three sources cautioned to Reuters that plans could change and there was no clarity on how much information would be available in the document, which comes about 30 days after the June 12 tragedy. The sources spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to speak to media. India's Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau, which is leading the probe under international rules , did not respond immediately to a request for comment outside normal business hours. INFORMATION RELEASEThe probe has been dogged by questions over lack of information, after investigators took about two weeks to download flight recorder data after the crash. The Indian government held only one press conference on the incident, and no questions were taken.However, India reversed course on an earlier decision reported by Reuters to prevent a U.N. aviation investigator from joining the probe, two senior sources said. A specialist from the U.N.'s International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) was granted observer status, following an unusual request by the agency to offer its support. ICAO declined to comment, adding in a statement that any public discussion of "cooperative arrangements," would require authorisation by the state. The crash is challenging the Tata Group's ambitious campaign to restore Air India's reputation and revamp its fleet, after taking the carrier over from the government in 2022. India is banking on a boom in aviation to support wider development goals, with New Delhi saying it wants India to be a job-creating global aviation hub along the lines of Dubai, which currently handles much of the country's international traffic. A panel of Indian lawmakers will review safety in the country's civil aviation sector and has invited several industry and government officials to answer questions on Wednesday, with topics set to include the recent plane crash. Reporting by Allison Lampert in Montreal and David Shepardson in Washington; Additional reporting by Dan Catchpole in Seattle and Kanjyik Ghosh in Bengaluru; Editing by Jamie Freed |
Fursty Ferret
July 09, 2025, 11:00:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918308 |
For what it's worth, if the fuel control switches were rapidly cycled as per the dual engine failure memory actions, the engines should both have restarted and recovered full thrust within a matter of seconds. This is part of the certification and Rolls Royce publish the procedure (unofficially) as a last-ditch attempt to recover an engine that's experiencing a locked-in surge condition.
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OliTom
July 09, 2025, 11:07:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918314 |
For what it's worth, if the fuel control switches were rapidly cycled as per the dual engine failure memory actions, the engines should both have restarted and recovered full thrust within a matter of seconds. This is part of the certification and Rolls Royce publish the procedure (unofficially) as a last-ditch attempt to recover an engine that's experiencing a locked-in surge condition.
Last edited by OliTom; 9th July 2025 at 11:24 . |
Propellerhead
July 09, 2025, 12:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918361 |
For what it's worth, if the fuel control switches were rapidly cycled as per the dual engine failure memory actions, the engines should both have restarted and recovered full thrust within a matter of seconds. This is part of the certification and Rolls Royce publish the procedure (unofficially) as a last-ditch attempt to recover an engine that's experiencing a locked-in surge condition.
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MaybeItIs
July 09, 2025, 12:35:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918363 |
Another question if I may? I've tried searching but find the search function quite perplexing! Anyway, didn't find this answered. From other posts here, it's clear that the Cutoff switches have a mechanical locking system which requires the switch handles to be pulled outwards to disengage the lock, before they can be moved to Cutoff. Question is, to a pilot who knows these switches, can both these switches be easily operated in this fashion in unison, i.e. I guess, with one hand, so that they are both unlocked and moved to off together? I imagine that would be quite difficult to do (unless that's what everyone routinely practices), so the result would not be simultaneous. |
SloppyJoe
July 09, 2025, 12:45:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918371 |
Firstly, it's not rapid cycling of the fuel control switches, you turn them off then back on and see if it starts, this can take more than a minute as you have to wait to see if the action was successful. Second problem as mentioned above, the speed was far too low for a successful relight, you would most likely end up with a hot start or no start, most likely with a lot of smoke out the back due to unburnt fuel.
edited to add, after reading about the 787 it seems it uses electrical power to start. Same sort of issue though if not enough power, which is likely given the RAT was out. Last edited by SloppyJoe; 9th July 2025 at 12:57 . |
Musician
July 09, 2025, 13:09:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918385 |
The idea is to set the switch to CUTOFF and then to ON as that resets the FADEC (the circuit that controls the engine) and hopefully clears any issues it might have. The hope is that the turbine is still rotating fast enough for the FADEC to restart it. I believe this works the same as the auto-relight feature.
The turbine rotation would also provide the electrical power for that. Do a thread search on "detent" to learn more about the construction of these switches than you ever wanted to know. ![]() There's also a section on them in paulross 's https://paulross.github.io/pprune-th...171/index.html , but it may not be up to date. (Still a great resource, though.) Unfortunately the wikipost linking to it is gone, presumably a victim to the recent forum changes. |
Magplug
July 09, 2025, 14:45:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918435 |
As a 787 operator I can observe a couple of things......
Deliberately cycling the Engine Cutoff switches just after rotate, in response to a dual power loss is inconceivable. You are way too low and slow for it to have any effect and your attention is better devoted to aiming for the flattest area ahead to crash into. Commencing the Dual Eng Fail/Stall checklist memory items is conditional upon both engines being at sub-idle and the aircraft being within the in-flight relight envelope. Neither of those conditions existed. The flight recorder will witness what came first - Power loss or Start Switches to Cutoff? It seems the 'Third Contingency' that I alluded to about a thousand posts ago, sadly now seems likely. Given the iron-grip that the government appears to have over the media, one wonders how the truth will ever surface? |
V1... Ooops
July 09, 2025, 16:26:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918497 |
There has been discussion recently about a procedure that involves moving the fuel switches to CUTOFF and then back to RUN following a dual engine failure.
Attached is an image of a page from the Air India 787 Training Manual that discusses this procedure. I am submitting this without comment or opinion. ![]() |
PJ2
July 09, 2025, 16:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918504 |
For info only - re-post of lever-lock fuel-switch design:
![]() B787 Fuel Control Switches - ![]() Last edited by PJ2; 9th July 2025 at 16:45 . Reason: Add image of B787 Fuel Control Switches |
Propellerhead
July 09, 2025, 16:38:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918511 |
Theory alert : If you don\x92t have, or delete the cruise altitude in the FMC the aircraft will command a level off at 400ft, with the thrust levers reducing thrust significantly (I\x92ve seen it in the sim and happened at least once for real to my operator). It\x92s easy to do when loading the descent winds if you hit the wrong button. Could this have been confused with a loss of thrust?
And I would say the cut off switches do make a fairly unique click when being moved - I can hear it in my head as I write this! |
Propellerhead
July 09, 2025, 17:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918533 |
Yeah but thought it worth discussing again IF we believe that the engine failure was caused by a pilot selecting both fuel control switches to cutoff. You\x92re right that I can\x92t imagine myself doing it but fear can make our inner chimps do strange things in response to the flight or flight response. (See the chimp paradox book).
In what world would you feather both props instead of selecting landing flaps in Nepal and cause a fatal crash? Seemed pretty inconceivable until it happened. What we all would do in the comfort of our armchairs is very different to what can happen in the heat of the moment. Last edited by Propellerhead; 9th July 2025 at 17:37 . |
Musician
July 09, 2025, 17:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918536 |
Yeah but thought it worth discussing again IF we believe that the engine failure was caused by a pilot selecting both fuel control switches to cutoff. You\x92re right that I can\x92t imagine myself doing it but fear can make our inner chimps do strange things in response to the flight or flight response. (See the chimp paradox book).
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simmple
July 09, 2025, 17:22:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918540 |
Not a Boeing but the aircraft I last flew, if you turned off the fuel nothing would happen unless the power levers were below a certain power setting. You had to reduce the power levers, maybe to idle, can\x92t remember, then the fuel switches off.
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Bristolhighflyer
July 09, 2025, 17:27:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918542 |
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Propellerhead
July 09, 2025, 17:55:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918554 |
Fuel control switches will cut off the fuel at any thrust or thrust lever setting - they need to be able to deal with an uncommanded thrust increase from an engine fault.
I guess I\x92m hoping that there is (and trying to find) a logical explanation to this accident that we can all learn from and make sure it never happens again. There aren\x92t that many things that scare me in my job. Some of the alternatives I find terrifying for the industry, the manufacturer, the operators and the travelling public. PPRUNE could make a rule that all accident threads are locked until the final report is published when it can be discussed (I\x92m sure the mods have been tempted at times)! I suspect the website wouldn\x92t get many hits if it did\x85.. |
Someone Somewhere
July 09, 2025, 18:06:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918557 |
There are many types where the shutoff position is a fully aft thrust lever, past a lift-up gate. Apparently this has caused a few human-factors issues because other types use the exact same mechanism for setting reverse thrust. |
tdracer
July 09, 2025, 18:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918562 |
One thing that I remember from when I was a simulator TRI/TRE on a Boeing was that as an instructor you get very used to operating critical
switches rapidly without following any procedure, in order to set the sim up for a single engine landing etc. When I was then line flying next I had to guard against doing the same thing in the real aircraft. However, it can also bite us. The Delta dual engine shutdown during takeoff from LA (referenced way back when in the 1st accident thread) was caused by muscle memory - the pilot reached down to set the EEC switches (located near the fuel On-Off switches) but muscle memory caused him to do something else - set both fuel switches to OFF. Fortunately, he quickly recognized his error, placing the switches back to RUN and the engines recovered in time to prevent a water landing (barely). It is conceivable that a pilot - reaching down to the center console to adjust something unrelated - could have muscle memory cause him to turn the fuel off to both engines. While all new engines are tested for "Quick Windmill Relight" - i.e. the fuel switch is set to CUTOFF with the engine at high power - and the engine must recover and produce thrust withing a specified time (memory says 60 or 90 seconds) - it takes a finite amount of time for the engines to recover (spool down after a power cut at high power is incredibly fast - plus moving the switch to CUTOFF causes a FADEC reset, which means it won't do anything for ~ 1 second). Doing that at a couple hundred feet and the chance that an engine will recover and start producing thrust before ground impact is pretty much zero |
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