galaxy flyer
July 15, 2025, 15:57:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11923044

Quote:

Originally Posted by B2N2

OODA - loop.

https://oodaloop.com/the-ooda-loop-e...-environments/

Keep in mind the critics of the \x91Miracle on the Hudson\x92. If they would have anticipated a dual engine failure and turned immediately they would have made a runway.
Thats not how things work in reality.

It takes times to analyze and come up with a response and look for a response.
Just keep in mind this was not occurring in an air conditioned simulator under training conditions.

Replicating the accident scenario in a G650 over on a another forum,

Quote:

We tried this in the G650 sim utilizing the timing from the accident report - both to cutoff 3 seconds after liftoff, then back to run 10 seconds later. The profile was pretty much exactly the same and resulted in a red screen. The next one we waited 10 seconds after liftoff (we left the gear down) and then another 10 seconds before moving them back to run. We actually got relight on one and then the other but full thrust was restored at only 80\x92 off the ground but we were able to fly away.

I know, completely different airplane, but it was certainly a unique scenario to watch and it showed us the behavior of the engines during an auto-relight that we had never seen before

Musician
July 17, 2025, 13:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924410

The issue of intent

Assumed: a pilot moved both fuel switches to CUTOFF, and that caused the accident.

Argument against intent:
1. The CVR, taken at face value, reveals that neither pilot was aware he had moved the switch himself
2. On a G650 simulator, CUTOFF after 10 seconds (then RUN after 10 more seconds) was barely recoverable. ( See upthread. ) This suggests the "unrecoverability" window on the 787 was quite short, making a suicide plan risky.
3. Similar accidents were survivable (someone said upthread).
4. Typically, pilot suicides start with the pilot alone in the cockpit at cruise altitude.
5. "Shut down both engines" is an action that often occurs after a flight, and could thus be learned as "muscle memory", and be subject to an action slip.
6. The airline stated that the captain's medical records were found "unremarkable".

Argument for intent:
1. It's the simplest explanation.
2. "I can't believe any pilot would do this unintentionally, and neither should you."
3. Pilot took 10 seconds to correct his "mistake"
4. Uncorroborated reporting has it that the captain did not sound panicked on the CVR.

Did I miss any points?

To be clear, given the facts in the preliminary report, I could not decide this question today.
Whatever happened in Ahmedabad is not affected by the outcome of our discussion.
I hope that the AAIB and the public prosecutor will gather as much evidence as possible, and then the question can hopefully be resolved from facts.

Last edited by Musician; 17th July 2025 at 14:02 . Reason: link added

paulross
July 17, 2025, 13:58:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924423

AI171 Thread by Subject

I have rebuilt the site that organises these threads by subject here: https://paulross.github.io/pprune-th...171/index.html

Changes:

- Build threads up to July 17, 2025, 13:34:00 (built on July 17, 2025, 14:42:00).
- Subjects added: "Mental Health", "G650 Simulation", "Wall Street Journal" and (reluctantly) "Suicide/Murder."
- Add some links to "Significant Posts" on the landing page.
- Fix issues with 'permalinks'.

Project is here: https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads
Raise issues here https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads/issues or PM me.

galaxy flyer July 15, 2025, 15:57:00 GMT permalink Post: 11923044	Quote: Originally Posted by B2N2 OODA - loop. https://oodaloop.com/the-ooda-loop-e...-environments/ Keep in mind the critics of the \x91Miracle on the Hudson\x92. If they would have anticipated a dual engine failure and turned immediately they would have made a runway. Thats not how things work in reality. It takes times to analyze and come up with a response and look for a response. Just keep in mind this was not occurring in an air conditioned simulator under training conditions. Replicating the accident scenario in a G650 over on a another forum, Quote: We tried this in the G650 sim utilizing the timing from the accident report - both to cutoff 3 seconds after liftoff, then back to run 10 seconds later. The profile was pretty much exactly the same and resulted in a red screen. The next one we waited 10 seconds after liftoff (we left the gear down) and then another 10 seconds before moving them back to run. We actually got relight on one and then the other but full thrust was restored at only 80\x92 off the ground but we were able to fly away. I know, completely different airplane, but it was certainly a unique scenario to watch and it showed us the behavior of the engines during an auto-relight that we had never seen before
Musician July 17, 2025, 13:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924410	The issue of intent Assumed: a pilot moved both fuel switches to CUTOFF, and that caused the accident. Argument against intent: 1. The CVR, taken at face value, reveals that neither pilot was aware he had moved the switch himself 2. On a G650 simulator, CUTOFF after 10 seconds (then RUN after 10 more seconds) was barely recoverable. ( See upthread. ) This suggests the "unrecoverability" window on the 787 was quite short, making a suicide plan risky. 3. Similar accidents were survivable (someone said upthread). 4. Typically, pilot suicides start with the pilot alone in the cockpit at cruise altitude. 5. "Shut down both engines" is an action that often occurs after a flight, and could thus be learned as "muscle memory", and be subject to an action slip. 6. The airline stated that the captain's medical records were found "unremarkable". Argument for intent: 1. It's the simplest explanation. 2. "I can't believe any pilot would do this unintentionally, and neither should you." 3. Pilot took 10 seconds to correct his "mistake" 4. Uncorroborated reporting has it that the captain did not sound panicked on the CVR. Did I miss any points? To be clear, given the facts in the preliminary report, I could not decide this question today. Whatever happened in Ahmedabad is not affected by the outcome of our discussion. I hope that the AAIB and the public prosecutor will gather as much evidence as possible, and then the question can hopefully be resolved from facts. Last edited by Musician; 17th July 2025 at 14:02 . Reason: link added
paulross July 17, 2025, 13:58:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924423	AI171 Thread by Subject I have rebuilt the site that organises these threads by subject here: https://paulross.github.io/pprune-th...171/index.html Changes: - Build threads up to July 17, 2025, 13:34:00 (built on July 17, 2025, 14:42:00). - Subjects added: "Mental Health", "G650 Simulation", "Wall Street Journal" and (reluctantly) "Suicide/Murder." - Add some links to "Significant Posts" on the landing page. - Fix issues with 'permalinks'. Project is here: https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads Raise issues here https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads/issues or PM me.

Posts about: "G650 Simulation" [Posts: 3 Pages: 1]