paulross
July 17, 2025, 13:58:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924423

AI171 Thread by Subject

I have rebuilt the site that organises these threads by subject here: https://paulross.github.io/pprune-th...171/index.html

Changes:

- Build threads up to July 17, 2025, 13:34:00 (built on July 17, 2025, 14:42:00).
- Subjects added: "Mental Health", "G650 Simulation", "Wall Street Journal" and (reluctantly) "Suicide/Murder."
- Add some links to "Significant Posts" on the landing page.
- Fix issues with 'permalinks'.

Project is here: https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads
Raise issues here https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads/issues or PM me.

ekpilot
July 17, 2025, 15:52:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924483

Two main camps

There seem to be two major camps at this stage. The crash was:

1) An intentional act of mass murder/suicide.

2) A mass casualty event caused by a mental health issue, another medical condition or an action slip/brain fart. At any rate, a non-desired outcome from the offending cockpit member's point of view.

Why some of my colleagues would so ferociously be advocating for option #1, I will never understand. Do you believe that the more condemning your language is the more credibility you will achieve with your peers if proven right in the end? I just don't get it. Maybe it's just a case of always being used to getting instant gratification in all aspects of life.
Give it some time. We have heard from very knowledgeable contributors to this thread how an investigation is conducted, maybe show some compassion with the deceased crew, passengers and people on the ground, and give it a rest for a minute?

The flight profile certainly does not indicate any sort of struggle in the flight deck post initial fuel switch "transition" as the wings level/center line tracking would suggest a maximum effort to keep the a/c in the air. That could easily be interpreted as a joint effort to rectify the issue or it could mean that the fuel cut-off switcher was severely incapacitated from that point on, leaving the other member to do his best to fly the Boeing solo.
Either way, a very strange way to commit a premeditated mass murder.

Again, I will not discount #1 but I am still very much "hoping" for #2.

Last edited by ekpilot; 17th July 2025 at 19:28 . Reason: Spelling and omission

skwdenyer
July 18, 2025, 01:03:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924785

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Duck

Depressed pilots have access to psychotherapy just as other people do. The problem is that using that access appears to be career-terminating.

Just so we're clear, most "other people" in the UK, for instance, don't have access to psychotherapy. NHS waiting lists are years-long; private services are (a) often provided by (being brutal) quacks, and (b) a significant cost that often can't be born. I can't speak for India in this regard, but sweeping generalisations like this are unhelpful. Mental health provision in much of the world is limited to non-existent.

Last edited by skwdenyer; 18th July 2025 at 01:20 .

skwdenyer
July 18, 2025, 01:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924788

Quote:

Originally Posted by MedicAn

Not a strong argument against; the majority of completed suicides examined by the US military didn't have indicators of serious MH issues (or suicidal ideation) in either the medical record, nor was family aware.

The study of suicidality is interesting, when it comes up against the examination of an event like this (whether murder/suicide is a possible explanation, why it might or might not be). Non-medical people will often focus on something that's a red herring because it seems strange in the context of a potential suicide, but in terms of the "natural history" of suicide, it might be a pretty common thing. I've been inv with suicide investigation as part of my work, and in some ways it's as frustrating to try to inform laypeople about what norms exist in that field as I imagine it must be for the professional pilots to have dilettantes like me opine on throttles and CRM.

On the topic of family members, etc. I'm not going to go into huge detail for reasons of confidentiality, but suffice it to say I have *far* too much experience of dealing with suicide attempts, ideation and indeed suicidal "success" amongst family members and others. Almost without exception, most family members don't see the signs because they're not looking for them, are generally not attuned to their family members, or simply block them out as something they don't want to consider. Whereas I've prevented more than one suicide by recognising precisely the signs others ignore and acting upon them quickly to intervene.

It is the same reason so many people seem to be able to get away with conducting affairs - so many humans, even humans who claim to be in love with us, are simply not very attuned, aware or observant.

A post-mortem questionnaire of family members is of little worth in determining if signs were present in my view, but more useful in showing how little those signs were seen.

As regards the points made by others up-thread about whether intervention helps, my preference is to use the broken limb analogy. If you speak to your Doctor, or your spouse, about your broken arm, they speak to your brain. If you speak about your mental health issues, they're talking to the injury. Whatever somebody else says to you is mediated through a - for want of a better term - broken interface. The trick (that so many, including in my experience mental health professionals) completely lack is to figure out (iteratively if necessary) how that "broken interface" is interfering, and find ways to get through it. What seems irrational, for instance, is usually anything but.

To be frank, from a risk-management perspective, rather than making mental health issues a career-limiting admission, it would likely be better for every airline simply to provide free (and mandatory, and confidential) counsellor sessions monthly - provide a safe space for all to open up, in the certain belief it will help some of them, and treat it as a prophylactic investment.

paulross July 17, 2025, 13:58:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924423	AI171 Thread by Subject I have rebuilt the site that organises these threads by subject here: https://paulross.github.io/pprune-th...171/index.html Changes: - Build threads up to July 17, 2025, 13:34:00 (built on July 17, 2025, 14:42:00). - Subjects added: "Mental Health", "G650 Simulation", "Wall Street Journal" and (reluctantly) "Suicide/Murder." - Add some links to "Significant Posts" on the landing page. - Fix issues with 'permalinks'. Project is here: https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads Raise issues here https://github.com/paulross/pprune-threads/issues or PM me.
ekpilot July 17, 2025, 15:52:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924483	Two main camps There seem to be two major camps at this stage. The crash was: 1) An intentional act of mass murder/suicide. 2) A mass casualty event caused by a mental health issue, another medical condition or an action slip/brain fart. At any rate, a non-desired outcome from the offending cockpit member's point of view. Why some of my colleagues would so ferociously be advocating for option #1, I will never understand. Do you believe that the more condemning your language is the more credibility you will achieve with your peers if proven right in the end? I just don't get it. Maybe it's just a case of always being used to getting instant gratification in all aspects of life. Give it some time. We have heard from very knowledgeable contributors to this thread how an investigation is conducted, maybe show some compassion with the deceased crew, passengers and people on the ground, and give it a rest for a minute? The flight profile certainly does not indicate any sort of struggle in the flight deck post initial fuel switch "transition" as the wings level/center line tracking would suggest a maximum effort to keep the a/c in the air. That could easily be interpreted as a joint effort to rectify the issue or it could mean that the fuel cut-off switcher was severely incapacitated from that point on, leaving the other member to do his best to fly the Boeing solo. Either way, a very strange way to commit a premeditated mass murder. Again, I will not discount #1 but I am still very much "hoping" for #2. Last edited by ekpilot; 17th July 2025 at 19:28 . Reason: Spelling and omission
skwdenyer July 18, 2025, 01:03:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924785	Quote: Originally Posted by Iron Duck Depressed pilots have access to psychotherapy just as other people do. The problem is that using that access appears to be career-terminating. Just so we're clear, most "other people" in the UK, for instance, don't have access to psychotherapy. NHS waiting lists are years-long; private services are (a) often provided by (being brutal) quacks, and (b) a significant cost that often can't be born. I can't speak for India in this regard, but sweeping generalisations like this are unhelpful. Mental health provision in much of the world is limited to non-existent. Last edited by skwdenyer; 18th July 2025 at 01:20 .
skwdenyer July 18, 2025, 01:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924788	Quote: Originally Posted by MedicAn Not a strong argument against; the majority of completed suicides examined by the US military didn't have indicators of serious MH issues (or suicidal ideation) in either the medical record, nor was family aware. The study of suicidality is interesting, when it comes up against the examination of an event like this (whether murder/suicide is a possible explanation, why it might or might not be). Non-medical people will often focus on something that's a red herring because it seems strange in the context of a potential suicide, but in terms of the "natural history" of suicide, it might be a pretty common thing. I've been inv with suicide investigation as part of my work, and in some ways it's as frustrating to try to inform laypeople about what norms exist in that field as I imagine it must be for the professional pilots to have dilettantes like me opine on throttles and CRM. On the topic of family members, etc. I'm not going to go into huge detail for reasons of confidentiality, but suffice it to say I have far too much experience of dealing with suicide attempts, ideation and indeed suicidal "success" amongst family members and others. Almost without exception, most family members don't see the signs because they're not looking for them, are generally not attuned to their family members, or simply block them out as something they don't want to consider. Whereas I've prevented more than one suicide by recognising precisely the signs others ignore and acting upon them quickly to intervene. It is the same reason so many people seem to be able to get away with conducting affairs - so many humans, even humans who claim to be in love with us, are simply not very attuned, aware or observant. A post-mortem questionnaire of family members is of little worth in determining if signs were present in my view, but more useful in showing how little those signs were seen. As regards the points made by others up-thread about whether intervention helps, my preference is to use the broken limb analogy. If you speak to your Doctor, or your spouse, about your broken arm, they speak to your brain. If you speak about your mental health issues, they're talking to the injury. Whatever somebody else says to you is mediated through a - for want of a better term - broken interface. The trick (that so many, including in my experience mental health professionals) completely lack is to figure out (iteratively if necessary) how that "broken interface" is interfering, and find ways to get through it. What seems irrational, for instance, is usually anything but. To be frank, from a risk-management perspective, rather than making mental health issues a career-limiting admission, it would likely be better for every airline simply to provide free (and mandatory, and confidential) counsellor sessions monthly - provide a safe space for all to open up, in the certain belief it will help some of them, and treat it as a prophylactic investment.

Posts about: "Mental Health" [Posts: 44 Pages: 3]